Thursday, 29 March 2018

Living on Top of the Pops

It's summertime and the living on Top of the Pops 1985 is easy!

When you forget to bring your semaphore flags

25/07/85  (Gary Davies & Dixie Peach)

Arrow – “Long Time” (36)
After a little edit to snip Gary Davies' suntan joke we get off to a very summery start to tonight's show and Long Time became Arrow's only top 30 hit when it peaked at number 30.

Madonna – “Into The Groove” (4) (video)
Following Live Aid, Madonna's career went into orbit and Into the Groove became her first of 13 number ones.

Feargal Sharkey – “Loving You” (30)
Swished his hair all the way to number 26.

The Cure – “In Between Days” (35) (breaker)
Peaked at number 15.

The Pointer Sisters – “Dare Me” (23) (breaker – Montreux clip)
Their final hit, peaking at number 17.

Dire Straits – “Money For Nothing” (15) (breaker)
Another act who got a huge live Aid boost - this tune peaked at number 4.

Trans X – “Living On Video” (10)
Sounding very European, although they were from Canada, the song went up one more place and was their only hit.

The Top Nine:
Jaki Graham - "Round & Around" (9) (video clip)
Denise LaSalle - "My Toot Toot" (8) (TOTP clip)
Opus - "Live Is Life" (7) (video clip)
Madonna - "Crazy For You" (6) (video clip)
Kool & The Gang - "Cherish" (5) (Montreux clip)
Madonna - "Into The Groove" (4) (video clip)
Harold Faltermeyer - "Axel F" (3) (video clip)
Sister Sledge - "Frankie" (2) (video clip)

Eurythmics – “There Must Be An Angel (Playing With My Heart)” (1) (rpt from 11/07/85)
Shame they couldn't make it into the studio for a new performance of what would be their only week ever at number one.

Opus – “Live Is Life” (7) (audience dancing/credits)
Went up one more place.

August 1st is next but its another Mike Smith one.


  1. Oh dear, yet more imposition of 21st century sensibilities on to the past at the start of this show, made all the more pointless by the Beeb making such a big fuss about Gazza's remarks in The Story of 1985. As Wilberforce remarked when we saw Dixie's first show, he mentioned his "suntan" then, so there was clearly a running joke going on here with no malice intended - if it is all so offensive, why weren't Dixie's comments edited too? Anyway, our hosts are both in check jackets this week, though Gary's is the louder of the two by some distance. Dixie looks more assured this time, if still a bit uncomfortable in places, and for some reason Gazza is left to do the chart rundown alone.

    Proceedings get off to an unpromising start with this highly generic summer carnival sound from Arrow. There seem to be millions of them on stage, but this is instantly forgettable fare which only jolts into some kind of life when it bizarrely shifts into the tune of "London Bridge is Falling Down" towards the end. One of Madge's biggest hits next, and the groove is pretty irresistible, though I think she has made better records than this overall. The video desperately plugs Desperately Seeking Susan, virtually the only film she ever made which didn't get subjected to a critical mauling, though I've never seen it so can't vouch for its worth. By the way Gary, it's just "Into the Groove."

    This Feargal song completely passed me by at the time, and on the evidence of the breakers clip last time I was prepared to write it off as a bit of a dirge. However, after a slow start it does pick up once the backing kicks in, and I actually quite liked it in the end. Not sure why Feargal had that guitar though, as you certainly can't hear it on the record. The snippet of The Pointer Sisters in this week's breakers is presumably the last we shall see of them, as this song never got played in full on TOTP. After their highly successful 1984, this sudden fall from chart grace underlines how fickle the music-buying public can be, though in fairness this song just sounded like a retread of previous hits; the hideous dresses on display here probably didn't help their cause either...

    I quite enjoyed the Trans X song and performance, though it goes downhill whenever the rather annoying bloke starts singing. There was a definite snatch of the old Casio keyboard made famous by Trio towards the end, and amusement value to be had from the women pointlessly miming to the
    highly synthesised vocal parts. After Gazza suffers another edit in the last link, presumably for mentioning Smitty this time, Opus provide a decent playout, with plenty of scarves being waved in the crowd. Why did the camera linger so long on the mulleted medallion man right at the end, though?

    1. The uncut show is on YouTube - it's actually Dixie who gets edited at the end:

    2. I never liked this Madonna song, my argument against this is if someone else had made this record would it really be as popular? I doubt it, Madonna hype helped this.

    3. john, i'm sure that dixie peach didn't actually mention his "suntan" in his debut appearance. what he said was something along the lines that "he'd been enjoying being out in the sun and looking forward to his first show". which could have been taken either as some kind of charlie williams-style joke reference to the colour of his skin, or that he was merely commenting on how pleasant the weather had been that week

    4. I would say that the Pointer Sisters dresses were very nice actually, and the two backing girls on TransX could have learned a thing or two from the Pointers as to how to dress up for appearing on stage. Good Lord, they looked like they had just about found something to wear at the last minute, and then what was the significance of the chemistry lab flasks on the TransX performance?

    5. Wilberforce - I think you'll find on his debut show Dixie Peach said something to the effect that he'd spent too much time out in the sun, a clear reference to his skin colour, with Gary Davies continuing the 'joke' on this edition, therefore it's reasonable to question why the BBC chose to edit one but not the other.

    6. I think Wilberforce is right that Dixie only alluded to a suntan rather than specifically mentioning one, but I also think my general point still stands that there was something of a running joke going on here that Dixie initiated himself, on camera at any rate.

      Dory - I wondered as well what the point of those lab flasks was. Presumably Michael Hurll thought they enhanced the atmosphere of that song!

    7. i think the difference is (as john says) dixie merely alluded to the gag (if at all), whilst gary makes it quite clear (and thus had to be excised accordingly as to not offend any viewers sensitive to that kind of thing in our pc world of today). i am guessing that no one who contibutes to this blog is anything other than white, but if not then it would be interesting to know what someone of that skin colour thought about the "sun tan" comment - both then and now

  2. Arrow, hey, this is a bit of fun, totally featherweight but a neat start to the show, especially Mr Arrow's dance moves. This would be aggressive dancehall if it had been released a few years later, so nice to hear it in a transitional phase.

    Madonna, man, did I get sick of this at the time, though it was still a relief from Frankie. It's that insistent synth backing that works its way into your ears, I think. As Rosanna Arquette was wont to point out back in '85, she was actually the star of Desperately Seeking Susan, not Madge, but you'd never have known it from the publicity.

    Feargal Sharkey with a strange thing, when he sings/shouts the title it sounds like he's sneezing. I didn't dislike it exactly, but it is odd. All the lyrics about getting intimate are a bit shudder-inducing.

    Breakers next, and Tim Pope's ingenious solutions to shooting a Cure video on a budget: hang the camera from a length of rope. Dire Straits I wonder if we'll see in full seeing as how it features anti-gay slurs in the lyrics? You only hear it played on the radio at night now, if at all. But the real gem is The Pointer Sisters' chart swan song, a fantastic pop tune with a killer chorus. Not really assisted by the Montreux version, mind you. Wish they'd played the boxing ring video.

    Trans X, yay, Eurotrash! Or French Canadian trash, anyway. Enjoyed this a lot at the time, it was used as the theme tune to a post-TVam magazine show for ver kids, though I'll be darned if I can remember what it was called. Lots of fun, nevertheless, in all its naff, po-faced glory.

    Then The Eurythmics for their only number one, well, at least they made it to the top with something, even if it's not my favourite of theirs. Utah Saints! U-U-U-Utah Saints! And Elmo from Brush Strokes singing in the video, of course.

    Opus hanging on in there, and their biggest fan judging by that tight perm left for the camera to linger on at the end. Hooray!

    1. Arrow is in the soca style, Hot Hot Hot is much more economical though it has the benefit of being more familiar I suppose.

      The Pointer Sisters song is decent, before coming here I looked at the video, I don't really like them dressed as men.

    2. Hot Hot Hot which was what everyone remembers Arrow for at their local disco, was never a hit in the UK, as it bizarrely only reached No.59 a year earlier in 1984, and never featured on TOTP that year, which is why we see Arrow's effectively 'debut' single Long Time in 1985.

      Hot Hot Hot was a disco favourite for at least a couple of decades after, but this new one Long Time left no impression whatsoever, but for many it was probably a relief to see what the group looked like, as there were were no studio performances or video for the disco classic Hot Hot Hot the year before, but they were still dancing to it no doubt!

    3. Soca, that was the word I was fumbling towards, thanks!

  3. hosts: more beeb pc revisionism going on according to angelo - boo! fortunately you can still see the "offending" joke on yt

    arrow: all i remember him for is "feeling hot hot hot", and certainly not this - which sounds exactly the same as the aforementioned, but without the hook

    madonna: i have to admit i still had a fascination for her at this point, and this single was certainly back into the groove as it was the best thing she'd done since "holiday" to my ears. in fact due to that i even went and saw the film where all the video clips came from. even though she got second billing behind the cute rosanna arquette (who was by far the best-known of her acting clan for several years, before being relegated in that respect by her late transexual "sister" alexis), to my recollection she was very much third banana in terms of screen time behind the engaging male lead aiden quinn (who is still just as likeable in the current holmes-in-new-york tv series "elementary" 30 years on). i thought the film was great at the time, but i haven't seen it for years now. and i suspect my disdain for what she became could well affect my enjoyment of it if i did watch it again?

    feargal sharkey: i had it in my head that he emerged in his besuited crooner persona with a debut no.1 hit, but i was obviously wrong in my recollection as this came before that. no sign of the totp appearance on yt, but listening to the record i feel sorry for those who were there and who had to endure this tuneless dirge that only begins to get started after nearly two minutes have passed (and even then barely). only saved from the ignominity of being in my top 10 turkeys list as a result of loads of better-remembered horrors already jostling for position despite barely being into the second half of the year

    trans x: the singer (sorry, vocalist - there isn't actually any singing going on as such) seems to have ditched his chums in their video (including the female backing singer, who was much more appealing than the two here - despite their black leather skirts). i've still no recollection of this from back then and can't say i'll be looking to add it to my synth pop collection, although i suppose i would have danced to it had it been played in a nightclub (and i was drunk enough). the "star wars" noises begin to irritate after a while though

    1. sorry - i should have put "backing vocalist" for the trans x lady, as she didn't exactly sing either!

    2. also: i only noticed john's link for the whole show on totp after i uploaded my review. but (assuming the copyright police haven't taken it down already) i think i'll resist the opportunity to see feargal in action...

    3. I echo the fact that this was Madonna's finest moment with Into The Groove. Love the song, love the video, and it portrayed all the energy and vibe of an 80s decade that was branching out from the slower decades before, and this video just really brought out the fun and joy of a decade that will forever be remembered as a decade of change, and the beginning of female empowerment that was never to go back to previous times.

      Strangely enough, this is the only Madonna video that has never been available to purchase on iTunes over the years, presumably because of the film clips in it, and a pity, as it is the best song and video she has done through her career, and where she came through to everyone's hearts, in case anyone doubted her as a long term chart regular.

      I'm just really pleased we have her for the next four TOTP shows as our No.1 right through the month of Aug 1985. Oh, and also it was great that TOTP played the video in full on this first appearance at No.4, right through to the final fadeout!

  4. Nice long playout this week, and I doubt this much of it was played on the original broadcast in 1985. Wow, we've trawled through 7 months of 1985 in only 3 months, as we now launch into August 1985, which was all about Madonna at No.1 for the rest of the summer of 1985, and still a whole plethora of Mike Smith-presented shows for the rest of the year, so there will be no let up to the avalanche of multiple TOTP shows per week in these reruns.

    Any sign of the 1st Aug show, as BBC4 will launch straight to 8th Aug on this Good Friday evening?

    1. It looks like we will be getting some respite from the avalanche, as BBC4 launches its Young Musician competition next Friday. That is going to run for 8 weeks, so it is probable we will only get one TOTP per week on BBC4 during that time, and possibly none at all when The Sky at Night is on.

      No sign of 01/08/85 as yet - hopefully Neil B hasn't gone off on his Easter holidays...

    2. Neil just posted on Facebook

      "Oh dear, I don't seem to have a copy of TOTP 01/08/85! Anyone else got one?"

    3. Won't be shedding too many tears if this edition doesn't show up. The only real interest for me would be seeing Gary Moore (as we've already seen Madonna). Most of other featured the acts I would be reaching for FF.

    4. Looks like a copy has turned up via Facebook so fingers crossed.....

    5. A WeTransfer link is now available, so big thanks to Crystal, our benefactor:

  5. Hat trick of lousy editions for me with only Madge providing highlights and also emulating the feat I mentioned about the Late Sir Ken Dodd having two singles in the top 10 – not a common feat, although I have to grudgingly acknowledge that Trevor Horn’s creation managed it for some weeks in 1984.

    Arrow – Long Time – Gave this a minute or so before reaching for FF. Sounded a little like Modern Romance but certainly not in the same league. Preferred the Arrows.

    Madonna – Into the Groove – Ah that’s more like it. Loved this single which was tagged onto later copies of her ‘Like a Virgin’ album and inexplicably not released as a single in the US. Great video too.

    Feargal Sharkey – Loving you – Well, you could never see Feargal as part of a ‘Barbershop’ group of singers as he’s suffering in the same way as I recall Clifford T Ward did, and the hair flicking does get irritating after a while. An OK song with some nice instrumentation but not a classic.

    Breakers – I vaguely recall the Cure track, don’t recall the Pointer Sisters song (nice almost matching dresses) and the Dire Straits song is just a legend that lives on. I believe when the ‘Brothers in Arms’ album was first released, the song was just credited to Mark Knopfler, but by the time of the single’s release, Sting’s contribution was enough to garner him a co-credit. No sign of him in this video however.

    Trans X – Living on Video – Speaking of dire….. What’s with the chemistry experiments (reminds me of Landscape) and how on earth did this make the top10???

    Eurythmics – There must be an Angel (playing with my heart) – Another parenthesised song title (and I skipped it using FF).

    Opus – Live is Life playout – What a cracking song to dance out to! Everyone looks like they’re having fun (except for Medallion Man) and those scarves are getting another outing.

    1. the story regarding songwriting credits for "money for nothing" was that somebody in the industry thought sting's chucked-in refrain of "i want my, i want my, i want my mtv" was enough to justify co-authorship - even though sting himself apparently wasn't bothered. still, nice work getting tens if not hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of pounds for what in effect is four words (i don't suppose sting gave his share away to charidee?), reminding me of (lord) david dundas who benfitted similarly by providing exactly the same number of musical notes for the original channel ident!

      by the way, "spitting image" did a brilliant lampoon of "money for nothing" (that i'd much rather listen to than the tedious original, although for some reason there's a sax wailing away on it that i'm sure wasn't there in the first place) where the sting puppet (ironically) sang " i want my, i want my, i want my royalties"!:

      i copied the audio for this off a video recording of it (i had to transfer it to video, as the dvd had copyright protection on it!) to mp3, and in doing so re-titled the song as "money for yuppies" (and the "band" as "dire rear" ho ho!)

    2. that should have read "for the original channel 4 ident"!

    3. regarding the eurythmics title with parenthesis: i suppose it's better to break up the song title with brackets rather than one continuous line, as it's rather a mouthful otherwise. had annie taken advice from me beforehand, then i would have suggested she simply call it "angel". but then again madonna had a hit with a song with exactly the same title not long after this... which is another bugbear of mine!

      for those interested, i've now made my way to the end of 1975 in the rescued "nigel's golden years" website (although it's a great stroll down memory lane, i have to admit i find the guy's comments somewhat fascistic at times. and he's not done his research properly on a few tracks as well. for instance "where is the love" is another case of actually being two different songs with the same title - by flack/hathaway and betty wright respectively - rather than one being a cover of the other as he states). anyway, the reason i mention it is because i have now found another contender for most ridiculous/nonsensical song title with parentheses in the shape of cockney rebel's "mr raffles (man it was mean)". or strictly speaking it was "steve harley and cockney rebel" - another bugbear of mine, whereby the leader of a band lets his ego take over to get a special namecheck for himself as well (macca/wings plus bolan/t rex are also guilty in that respect)

    4. Nige's spelling is suspect at times too... 'Life is a Minestrone' by 10cc in 1975 mentions 'Parmison cheese' and 'Spaggeti Bolognase'.

      On the subject of confused covers, Nige says he got really upset when none other than Kylie released a song called 'Tears on my Pillow' and reviewers kept saying that it was a cover of Johnny Nash's no1 hit from 1975!

      In the equivalent chart for this week in 1975, our Nige laments how more poor covers can put you off a song for life, citing Bryan Hyland's 'Sealed with a Kiss' being later recorded by Jason Donovan. Not always the case I might counter - I really liked Dr and the Medics cover of Norman Greenbaum's 'Spirit in the Sky', however, don't get me started on Boy George's demolition of Bread's (and Ken Boothe's) 'Everything I own'.

    5. I'm not all that keen on the Ken Boothe version of Everything I Own either, to be honest. David Gates wrote the song about his late father, and turning it into a reggae tune has never struck me as being an entirely appropriate treatment for it, though admittedly Ken does bring some genuine emotion to the song in his vocals.

    6. Kylie Minogue's 'Tears on my Pillow' is one of her better efforts for me. It's typical of teen idols to do covers, but it's a very tasteful one in that instance.

    7. sct i would personally get very upset if kylie (or "whiny" as i call her) mauled any of my favourite songs. mercifully for me the only old 70's tune i remember her ransacking was some chairmen of the board thing that i hated anyway!

  6. totp 1st August 1985 (thanks Neil b. & Crystal) is here:

  7. Editing out the supposedly offending first link doesn't annoy me for the core reason so much as the sheer two-faced nature of making a big play of it in the documentary then not featuring it in the show itself. Anyhow...

    Arrow - Most peple would name 'Hot Hot Hot' as their big 80s hit. Nope, it missed the Top 40 entirely (though admittedly was a hit - just about - in remix form in the 90s) and although I'm not keen on it, this is much worse. The 'London Bridge' bit at the end is just bizarre.

    Madonna - Again, if you asked people what Madge's first chart topper was, not many would say this (most plumping for 'Like A Virgin' or 'Holiday' I expect) and although it's a little overplayed now, it's still better than most other things in the Top 40 at this time. Speaking of which...

    Feargal Sharkey - Utterly dreadful.

    Breakers - Blimey, 2 good songs here again. The Cure one is excellent, should have been a much bigger hit. The Pointer Sisters one is for me their best single. And Dire Straits is obviously crap.

    Trans X - Not only the best thing on the show by a mile, also probably the second best performance on TOTP85 after The RAH Band. Hilariously silly. The lady on the guy's right looks like an actress whose name I can't recall right now.

    Then Eurythmics acting as our saviours for knocking that drivel off the top and - for the first time in ages - a decent playout tune!

    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

    2. Yes, that's the one, thanks! What do we think then, is it her?

    3. i'm not familar with the actress in question, but i've done some "research" and would say it was a distinct possibility as i think it highly unlikely the trans x guy would bring a couple of backing dancers all the way from canada with him. thus the show producers probably supplied some local ringers/stand-ins (she would have been around 18 at the time, so it's just about possible time-wise)

      this may seem unkind, but ms small's eyes are so large and wide-apart that i can't help but be reminded of ET! perhaps "private eye" should have featured them as "lookalikes"?

    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

    5. I first caught Sharon on the excellent, short-lived series 'Glasgow Kiss' where she spoke in her native scottish accent (screened in 2000 - sheesh!). She then went on to be the sidekick of (as my wife puts it) the 'easy on the eye' Nathaniel Parker in 'The Inspector Lynley Mysteries' and was one of the leads in the popular 'Mistresses' series. Other staple appearances have followed in the likes of' Midsommer Murders', 'Silent Witness' and even 'Downton Abbey'.

      Given the resemblance to the Trans X backing singer (which struck me as well before Noax made reference to it), I would say (as does Wilberforce) that it was possible as Sharon was born on New Year's Day 1967 which would have made her 18 at the time of this ToTP show. Wikipedia and IMDb don't help us much in this respect however as they only show her media career from about 1994 onwards and also note that she's only 5" 5, whereas the lady in Trans X seems taller.

      My verdict: maybe, if the other members of Trans X were also short.

    6. if it was her and she had 3 inch high heels on, then that would have made her 5 feet 8 inches - which i am, and which was considered the average height for a man in those days

      by the way, looking at her resume ("inspector lynley", "midsomer murders", "downton abbey" et al) i'm not surprised i've never heard of her - as far as i'm concerned that's television for people who don't like television very much, and thus to be avoided like the plague!

    7. One episode of 'Midsomer Murders' featured Suzi Quatro spectacularly electrocuted on stage!

    8. there is a big hole in that plotline (as i suspect there are many in fast-food dramas like "midsomer murders" - in this case there is a gaping hole you can drive a juggernaut theough in the basic concept that the typical quaint english village in somewhere like the cotswolds has a homicide rate akin to new york) in that when suzi got electrocuted nobody could tell the difference between her reaction and her normal shreiking!

      i do remember her having a guest role in "minder" playing (guess what) a rock star! why do they always seem to cast pop singers-turned-actors in such stereotype roles (toyah in "shoestring", paul nicholas in at least two jackie collins movies)? do they think they can only act if they have actually had some experience in the part they're playing?

    9. I think Toyah and Paul Nicholas were professionally acting before the music bug bit.

    10. i'll concede that unlike suzi quatro, they weren't solely pop stars before they did some acting. but paul nicholas first got noticed in the musical "hair", and toyah pretty much started her music career around the same time as her acting one (if there was any way she could get ito showbiz, she would have a go... regardless of any discernable talent!)

  8. Anyone notice the poorly recreated name graphic at the start of the program? In the original airing (see YouTube link above) Gary and Dixie's name fades within the edit so there was a need to name check them out of the edit.

    1. If they could recreate the graphics in this show then this means they could recreate the presenters credits for the Xmas 85 show to eliminate JK's name.

    2. I did notice that and forgot to mention it in my review. Surprised they bothered at all, to be honest.

    3. They've done this kind of thing before. I even put up a comparison video for 14/7/83 to show the sneakiness going on:

  9. OK, particularly annoying edits this time around, so here's my restored version (with "suntan" intro and Mike Smith reference at end both put back):

    Full list can be found here:

  10. Going solo this time, Wifey thinks Gary Davies would be sacked for that suntan comment today and taken herself off to bed.
    (Thanks for the link drykid )

    Kicking off with a bit of reggae from "never heard of them" Arrow. Thought it was going to be Amazulu for a minute then the bloke appeared. Quite lively but not up to much songwise.
    What's with "London Bridge is falling down "....

    Madonna back again. She really was a hit machine in the 80s and this will be ner first Number one in a few weeks.
    It's a cracking tune, forgettable video flogging a movie no one probably watched. She's smoking in the video. OMG. Ban that video now.

    Oh no. That bloody awful ballad from last weeks breakers gets a full outing. How did he go from The Undertones to this...
    Bring on A Good Heart.
    Oh hang on, there's a beat....took its time. Slightly less naff now. A very oddly put together record.

    The Cure. Love this song. Great video as well.
    Pointer Sisters. Not familiar with this one. Standard disco fare.
    Dire Straits, hardly a breaker. Very famous video, ok song. AmazEd this hasn't got a full outing. A definite victim of the 30 minute shows.

    Trans X. Living in the studio this week. Very much style over sunstance. Studio performance not that great either. Robot dancing about 2 years late.

    New number one. And it's a cracker. Repeat from a couple of weeks ago but great to see it again. The kid at the back looks like he's never held a guitar before in his life "so I just hold it and tap it...ok"

    La la La la la....

    Ooh Gary was Ok. Dixie a bag of nerves,
    Not much to write home about this week

  11. A mute intro and outro piece for our check mates, which sounded stupid.

    Nice colour co-ordinated backing vocalists and tie dye brass trio for Arrow. Shame about his admiral garb and the tune overall, which didn’t hit the target (see what I did there?). Another vote for The Arrows instead.

    A decent song by Madge, and I remember enjoying the film while getting annoyed that she suddenly got the billing plaudits.

    Lucky Dixie, surrounded by lovelies before Feargal’s dirgeful din.

    I always loved “In Between Days” and “Friday I’m in Love”, proof that The Cure could ‘do’ happy whether they meant to or not.

    I remembered The Pointer Sisters’ tune when the chorus kicked in. I never want to remember that Dire Straits shite again.

    I think Trans-X’s lab garb was trying to find the formula for a hit follow-up. Following this awful Space Invaders disco, I half expected “Pacman – The Album”.

    How many more weeks will we get that sodding Montreux clip of “Cherish”?

    No, Gary, it’s not THE Eurythmics. Sheesh!

    I really wish they’d played Laibach’s version of “Life Is Life “ for the outro. Yes, I know they hadn’t recorded it by this time but even so!

    1. I like Friday I'm in Love more than In Between Days, though I think it's atypical of them.